Random Theory Time

[icedark_elf]

Whee, it's time for random theory time.

Been watching skeren playing Dirge of Cerberus, and I had a random thought.

Some of the Deepground SOLDIERs are clearly female.

Does this mean that, in original FFVII, there were female SOLDIERs, just unseen? I mean, it's not like we get a great variety of SOLDIERs to look at, so if it was a low ratio number, say 1 woman to every 5 guys, wouldn't it make sense for them to be there, just unseen until now? Deepground seems to have a pretty small population group.

Or do you think they were just experiments added in later?

Comments

[madame_maya.insanejournal.com]

...Is it bad that my first thought was, "Oh god, beware of them that time of the month"? Eh-heh- ^_^;;;

Seriously, though, you're sure? That's kind of awesome.

[icedark_elf.insanejournal.com]

*nods* If you look at some in the armor, they definitely have curves under it. And skeren says that there are others who are the typical "We must have bare legs" girl. Who are actually tougher to beat down than the guys are.

[madame_maya.insanejournal.com]

That's so damn cool, I'm going to have to look for screenshots. *Sucks at games h-haha ^^;;*

[madamhydra.insanejournal.com]

Hmmm.... I thought that the process that produced the Deepground SOLDIERs was distinctly different from the 'traditional' SOLDIER process (i.e., the Deepground process didn't use Jenova cells). That might explain why there are no (or very few) of the Jenova-type SOLDIERs.

I've actually thought quite a bit about this question and I've developed two competing theories about the existence of female SOLDIERs:

(1) There are no female Jenova-type SOLDIERs because:
(a) the Jenova cells used in the 'traditional' SOLDIERs are for some reason physiologically and/or psychologically incompatible with female humans;
(b) Shinra, or more specifically President Shinra and Hojo, are male chauvanists and never bothered to try creating female SOLDIERs for a variety of reasons (e.g., don't think mere females can take the stress and/or that men make better fighters; etc.) although this appears to be somewhat contradicted by the apparent existence of female Deepground SOLDIERs.

(2) There ARE female Jenova-type SOLDIERs, but only a very few rare prototypes just to see if the process worked on females. Shinra simply didn't choose to produce more female SOLDIERs for a variety of reasons (e.g., male chauvinism; the difficulty of using Jenova cells on females as compared to males; etc.)

In my fics (COI, the Fem!Zack series), I've gone with (2), with the idea that there are female SOLDIERs, but they're exceptionally rare and merely prototypes and/or reserved for highly secret specialist roles like spying, infiltration, etc. Which might explain why no one ever talks about them...

But given the presence of female Deepground SOLDIERs, I'll say that theory (1) is probably more likely (i.e., there something about the Jenova-type SOLDIER process that simply doesn't agree with female humans). ^_^;;

[icedark_elf.insanejournal.com]

Well, I know that, according to the big speech Reeve gives, Deepground apparently started as a medical setup for injuried SOLDIERs. It was later that they started to play experimenter on them.

I play with the idea that the only beings Jenova can take over fully are females. Course, I also have a universe or two where they not only take in girls for SOLDIER, but they also start making 12 year olds part of the program due to the fact that younger people take better to the Mako and Jenova.

Still, it is an interesting idea.

[madamhydra.insanejournal.com]

I did a quick text search in the Dirge of Cerberus script and found only a handful of Jenova references, so while it's possible that the Deepground is an direct offshoot of the Jenova-based SOLDIER process (i.e., using Jenova cells), there doesn't seem to be any direct statements confirming that. For all we know, the Deepground SOLDIERs were created using purely mako, etc.

Regarding Jenova and female hosts, I do recall having a similar conversation with someone (although I can't remember who). The term 'incompatible' can cover a whole slew of possibilities: (1) females are much less affected by Jenova cells than males; (2) females are much more affected and therefore prone to 'lose' themselves more than males; (3) a combination of (1) and (2), in that females may be more initially resistant to Jenova's influence than males, but if Jenova somehow manages to take over, there's a much higher level of assimilation with a female host than a male host.

In my fics, the general theory is that there are female SOLDIERs, but they're all at the low end modification-wise, for a variety of reasons. In other words, you might have female SOLDIERs who perform a Third Class level, but none at First Class. I can see Shinra and Hojo not wanting to bother fully optimizing the process for females and concentrating on producing higher level male SOLDIERs.

[guiltyred.insanejournal.com]

I tend to favor the 1(a) theory -- considering how badly things went for Lucrecia and even Gillian, it looks like Jenova played total havoc with female subjects.

[madamhydra.insanejournal.com]

I tend to lean toward that theory, too. It could be that something in a female's physical/genetic makeup is somehow intrinsically incompatible or somehow more resistant to the changes caused by the Jenova cells, which in turn causes all sorts of nasty side effects that males don't have.

Perhaps something to do with females being XX while males being XY? ::sheepish grin::

[elanor_pam.insanejournal.com]

I'm guessing the deep ground proccess if different from the usual proccess... also, since Deep Ground was something of a secret, they had to make do with whatever samples they had at hand, male or female. Grudgingly.

So, I'd say it's a mix of Jenova incompatibility and chauvinism.

[icedark_elf.insanejournal.com]

Well, at first, it was the medical program. Later, I'm sure it did get a great deal stealthier. *nods* That's implied in game.

Still, it leads to interesting thoughts, doesn't it? *has mental image of SOLDIER Tifa*

[elanor_pam.insanejournal.com]

I never played Dirge, so I didn't know about the medical thingie... but maybe they started adding women when the "stealthiness" kicked in.

Then again, SOLDIER Tifa = win. Considering how mind-boggingly strong she is WITHOUT treatment...

There was an RP somewhere in which Tifa was a SOLDIER, Aeris was the scientifical experiment, Seph was the last cetra, Cloud was the bartender, Dyne was the leader of Avalanche and his adopted son was Kadaj, Lucrecia was the alien lifeform, the evil corporation wasn't Shinra, but something else, and Hojo also had another role... inversions like that. I don't think it ever got off the ground, though, except for a couple of stints at sages_of_chaos.

I think Zack was one of the 3 remnants, even. Don't quote me on that, though.

[renshai.livejournal.com (from insanejournal.com)]

I've always figured that there were female SOLDIERs, but we just never saw (or recognized) them. I mean, we don't exactly meet many SOLDIERs in the game, or at least not in such a way as to be able to tell if they're female or not. We know that the Turks have never had any qualms about hiring women, so I can't imagine there's a company-wide policy involving women in combat zones. (And I can testify, as a female in an 96% male profession, as long as you're not wearing hotpants and a tight shirt, people very rarely realize you actually are a girl, when you're in with all the boys.)

Actually, the only argument I can really think of against there being female SOLDIERs (aside from, you know, generic misogyny) is that Hojo would be a little /too/ interested in them. Would a child with a SOLDIER mother have a greater affinity for Mako than other children? But I always figured that once they became SOLDIERs, Sephiroth was sort of insistent about none of his troops disappearing into the labs.

[aikonamika.insanejournal.com]

As several people have said, there's the Jenova element and the mysogeny element to consider, but there's also a purely physical element.

Don't quote me on this, but I think that female bodies tend to have a slightly more delicate chemistry balance than males - I heard it in reference to something like breast cancer, but I'm not sure. In that case, it might have been possible to make female SOLDIERs, but unfeasible due to the fact that they required a lot more specialized work making sure that all of the enhancements stayed balanced with their monthly cycles and the like. Males tend not to have that problem as much.

With Deepground, they may have had some of the few female SOLDIERs there, or they may have had the time and facilities to focus on detailing treatments to female SOLDIERs, so that they could keep their blood chemistry balanced. Again, it might have been a question of feasability, as opposed to possibility. Easier to churn out a large number of men instead of carefully adjusting a smaller number of women.

[megpie71.insanejournal.com]

It helps to have seen the whole of DoC, particularly the "hidden" ending (collect all the G Reports) to get a better context for where the Deepground troops fit into the whole boiling. Suffice it to say the whole Deepground project appears to have started shortly before the events of Crisis Core, and there *is* a connection between the two.

That said, I tend to agree with the theorists who suspect there's a reason why there are very few mature females to have survived the Jenova treatments, and I figure Rosso the Crimson is a good example of what happens to them. Let's face it, Rosso is crackers by any metric you choose to use, and my suspicion is that the Jenova process in particular isn't kind to the female psyche. This may be the reason why Shelke Rui has had puberty artificially postponed - while she can gain a lot from the Mako/Jenova process (I suspect it's mostly Mako at this point, since there isn't much of Jenova left anywhere after the events of FFVII and AC) it isn't safe to allow her to mature fully.

I'm reasonably certain the Jenova process is biologically fine for mature female humans to undergo, much the same as it appears to be biologically fine for mature human males. However, the problem is with the psychological aspects of the whole thing - and from canon, it appears the Shinra company was never too keen on spending the money on headshrinkers. Ensuring women got through the process and came out sane enough to be useful probably wasn't considered cost-effective.

[azimel.insanejournal.com]

*Desperately needs to replay DoC*

From what I recall, the process in the making of a DGS was quite different than that of SOLDIER-standard flavor. It makes more sense when you've played through the whole thing and get all the Omega reports (SUBLIMINAL MESSAGE: GET ALL THE OMEGA REPORTS). I don't know how much I should say without ruining something. D= I'm a bit adamant to add in an extra two cents about something else you'll want to consider.

I've also heard that the whole DGS back story is some what fleshed out more in Crisis Core and in Ultimania.

Regardless, it kinda sucks/sucked to be a "member" of the DGS, male or female. *cough* Especially if you're female: I mean, Com'mon! There may as well be a giant "Roy Wuz Here" sign plastered on that.

[azimel.insanejournal.com]

Dammit: totally meant G Reports.